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Entrepreneurship is an exciting and fun ride most of the time, but there are also really scary times we don’t seem to talk about. Like when we’re ready to pivot or make a big shift in your career or even your life. Facing the unknown isn’t easy, but my dear friend, Mary Marantz joins me for a lovely conversation about making the move from photographer to author and what that looked like for her.

Listen in as she shares how she approached pivoting her career strategically, and what to consider when you have big moves you want to make in life.

Mary Marantz is a Yale Law School graduate and the first in her immediate family to go to college. She is the author of the book “Dirt” about growing up in West Virginia, and the host of The Mary Marantz Show- which debuted in the iTunes top 200 podcast list.  Her writing has been featured by Business Insider, Thrive Global, MSN, Bustle, and Brit+Co.

Get to Know Mary (1:42)

How to Overcome Fear to Make Big Moves (6:01)

Creatives achieve burnout by doing the same thing over and over again. Do brand new things.

How to Strategically Pivot (11:13)

• Create margin in your calendar
• Determine a test period for success (and have financial plans)

Unpopular Opinion (19:53)

Links
thebookdirt.com
bit.ly/thebookdirt
Kim Butler of The White Boardroom
Quitter by Jon Acuff

Review the Transcript:

Laylee Emadi
Welcome to so here’s the thing where we share candid conversations that lift the veil on what it takes to find success, even if that means sharing a few unpopular opinions. I’m your host Laylee Emadi, grab some coffee or cocktail. And let’s get real. Hey, friends, I am so excited to have the one and only Mary Marantz as a guest on the show today, I’m beyond honored that she’s here because I am such a fan. Aside from being very, very lucky in life to call Mary, one of my friends, I’m a huge fan of hers, all the way back from her work as a photographer. And now as an author of the book, dirt. And if you haven’t read it, you must read it, I actually have two copies, I don’t know, if you knew that I have two copies sitting in my bookshelf, I adore you. And your book is phenomenal. And I’m so excited for our listeners to get to hear from you. We’re gonna be talking today all about making really big shifts in your career and in your business and in your life. And I just feel like there is no better person to tackle this topic than you marry. So I’d love to kind of just kick it over to you and have you share a little bit about not only your journey as an author, but shifting from being one of the top photographers in our industry and the most sought after in demand just this huge thriving photography business, along with Justin to being an author full time, which is just for so many people, I think it was like a surprise, but also like this light comes on of Oh, is that something that you can do? So I’d love to hear about that shift for you. And like how it all happened?

Mary Marantz
Oh my gosh, well, first of all Laylee, I just have to say thank you so much for having me. I you know, like we were saying before we hopped on I wish we were doing this in person, I wish we could see each other and hug each other in person. But I see you every day, through Instagram just absolutely killing it stepping out as the leader and the speaker, and the educator that I like, I always knew that you should be it. I’m just so freakin proud of you. And just like it’s a huge honor to be here. So thank you for having me, first of all. And second of all, it’s so true when you were describing that pivot moment. Like I always kind of picture that meme of the little girl like smiling creepy at the camera, the house is on fire behind her because, you know, there is a certain element of feeling like okay, we built this thing up for 15 years. Let’s burn it down. You know, but I mean, the reality I think that’s the fear most people have right is like, Oh my gosh, like how do I pivot away from something that is working, even if it is not the thing that is setting my heart on fire anymore, to go do something that’s uncertain that there are no guarantees. That’s the fear, right. And also, it’s doubly hard for somebody who has already done that once because we have climbed that mountain before. Right, we have pushed that boulder up the hill, we’ve started from the bottom now we’re here, you know, we have done that already. And it’s exhausting to do that once. And it it changes you and it does something to you to have put so much of yourself into something once. And so this idea of letting the boulder roll down or just like you know, pushing it off a cliff or setting it on fire whatever analogy you want to go do something else. It’s really terrifying because the biggest question we ask ourselves is, do I have it in me to do it again? Do I have it in me to start at the bottom? Do I have an enemy to be brand new at something I was established at this thing? Now I’m going to be a newbie now I’m going to be that one that people aren’t sure of you know that they immediately don’t know if they should say yes, when you reach out to them. And so that’s hard. But I think what is much harder? Is it every single person listening, you started a creative business because you did not want to settle with your life. You did not want to stay in the cubicle that was sucking your soul out when you knew that you were created with gifts and abilities and a story that could go change other people’s lives. And so do not let whatever business you have built become the new cubicle, right? It’s just a prettier cubicle. And so that’s really kind of where I was the the goal of writing a book was always and being an author was always the goal for me. since I was five and we talked about that in the book. It I took that kind of like, you know the chicks the long way around to get there. And having my business for 15 years before becoming an author. It was not this detour that was wasted time. I took everything I’ve learned from running that business with me into this new world. So it’s a very long answer. We have a lot of parts of that to break apart. But that’s the biggest thing I want people to hear is do not let the business you’ve built become the new settling.

Laylee Emadi
Oh my gosh, I love that so much. I feel like every piece of that just resonates so deeply. I mean, even if I think about I feel like it just sparks things and I’m sure our listeners I feel the same way of, you know, when I left my teaching career I was I was good, like people knew me, I was helping other teachers, I was respected in that community, and then leaving that and having to rebuild. I’ve never really thought of it that way. But you know, same thing, becoming a creative educator from being just a photographer, just a business owner to having to build up that second career, and so on and so forth. I think just thinking about taking that permission to actually chase something that, like you said, Really lights you up and is not going to be that next cubicle for you is so important. Well, I’d love to hear it just like your perspective on I guess this is kind of a vague question, but like, how does one become brave enough to make that move? Because I feel like the fear is what holds so many people back. And I, I don’t even know if there’s like tangible ways that people can really like move past that. But I’m sure if anybody can have an answer it would be.

Mary Marantz
Yeah, well, you know, the first thing that I think is important, and this is something that I’ve really discovered, and maybe you discovered and spent a lot of time thinking about is for creatives. In particular, there’s something about the way that our brains are wired, that we start to achieve burnout by doing the same thing over and over again. So in the beginning, weddings are the ultimate adrenaline rush for us, because you never knew what was going to happen, you know, and you had to be on your toes, and oh, gosh, grandma’s brooch just broke right before the bride is gonna ask for the bouquet. Where’s the crazy glue in your bag? You know, there’s a lot of stuff that can that can happen on a wedding day. We could talk about that for hours. But what happens is that somewhere along the way, the things that used to challenge us, the things that used to be brand new, they start to become muscle memory, they start to become the mundane, they start to become you know, we’ve done this a million times before. Oh, gosh, dear groomsmen, I’ve never heard any groomsmen make that joke before. About You know, let me get a little closer to this other groomsmen, you’re super original. You really are. You know, and when you start to feel that happening in you that little bit of bitter a little bit of cynicism, that little bit of like, Oh, here we go. Again, I think it’s really important to ask yourself, not only am I getting burnout, but am I showing up for the people I chose to serve as 100%. Myself, for weddings, in particular, I think you have to love them, or you will start to hate them. And we Justin and I made it the goal to be out before we ever went to somebody’s wedding. You know, hating it. Because that’s, that’s not fair to us. And it’s not fair to them. So that’s the first thing I would say is that we I actually read a really interesting article recently that talked about if you want your weekends to feel longer, if you want your summers to feel longer, it is important to that you are doing brand new things. They said when you’re little The reason your summers feel so long is because most of what you’re doing, you’re taking in and you’re experiencing for the first time. And so that can make things go really quickly when you’re doing them, you know, you go to a new theme park and ride some new roller coasters. Oh my gosh, time flew. He believed we were there 12 hours. But um, he said on Monday morning, when you look back on that weekend or in the fall, when you look back on that summer, it felt like it was the endless weekend, the Endless Summer, the endless whatever it was because your brain was forming new folds and new memories. It was solving new problems, it was really engaged with what you were doing instead of just being checked out. So this is why a 12 hour day binge watching something, you know, on Netflix can feel like a really long day when you’re in it. But then come Monday, you’re like, Oh, where did the weekend go? So that’s the first thing I’ll say is I think it’s very similar that when we start to do the same things over and over again, we’re not being challenged in that way. It might be time to say, Okay, do I need to change how I’m doing something? Or do I need to change what I’m doing? to kind of get into more of the idea of how do you set yourself up? Well, for that, I think the first thing that we should acknowledge is that it is very different for Justin and I to leap and pivot into a new business at our age 15 years into having a business than when we left the first time. And I because that’s this is really similar to what you were saying the second pivot for me, right, I went to school, I went to law school to become a lawyer had law firm offers, and decided not to do that and to start our business. Fast forward 15 years and I pivot into being an author. The first time I left we did not have a mortgage. You know, we were not trying to fund our retirement and we were not trying to be responsible adult humans. We were just young and carefree. And you know, a lot of people listening have, you know, maybe kids that they’re trying to think about college or whatever the case is. So I just think it’s important that we acknowledge that at this stage, that second pivot can in a lot of ways be harder than the first.

Laylee Emadi
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel like that is something that not a lot of people give enough attention to. I mean, I know I don’t thinking about the fact that like when you are in a new Time for you back when you’re younger, back when it’s like the first round, you’re like, Okay, I’m good, like I’ve got, I don’t really need that huge safety net, I don’t really need to, like rely on anything. So the pressure is, is exponentially higher. I love that I didn’t even think about that. And I would love to hear kind of, so we know that that’s there now. And that is something that could potentially be holding us back. I know for me, after he said that I was like, Oh my gosh, it’s so true. And people a lot of times when I talk to my coaching students, or anybody inside my educator Academy, they’re always like, Well, you know, I have a lot of conversations with people who are maybe single, or who do you have kids or whatever their season in life is and they they typically try to compare it with like, Oh, well, like, I don’t have a husband who has a job that like we can rely on, or I don’t have this or I don’t have that. And it really does kind of stop them. So like how do we move forward from that feeling? How do we move forward from that? I mean, I know that I feel like you did a podcast episode about this with Justin in the beginnings of your podcast, yeah, about setting things up really intentionally and like in a smart strategic way of like, here’s how we’re going to do it. Would you mind recapping that for us? Oh, my

Mary Marantz
gosh, Yeah, totally. So, I mean, I think that’s it, I think it’s one of the other things I think we should just like specifically put a pinpoint on is when you’re pivoting a second time, you have gotten used to making money, you have gotten used to a certain a certain level of living, you have become accustomed to a certain you know, what have you like the they call them the golden handcuffs for a reason. And it’s very, like when you were broke, law, student law school student, photography, student starting a business like cool, we’ll be broke for a while, whatever, we’ve been broke. But when you have been running a business that’s working, and thriving, and easy, at a certain point, we weren’t really advertising anymore, right? It was just like clients were beginning clients and students were beginning students, it’s kind of it’s very difficult to say, who pull the net out from underneath you. So that’s where you start to get very strategic, I think it’s very important for me to be clear that I didn’t just wake up one day and go cool. I’m going to like the match, burn the thing down, and I’m going to call myself an author, I worked with a coach, my coach Ken Butler, from the whiteboard room for about, I mean, I don’t think it has to be this long. But for me, it took about five years to do two things. One was to start to prune back my calendar. To start to create margin in my calendar, we looked at my calendar, which was scheduled from morning till night, go go go weekends, you know, booked with weddings or 12 months or 24 months out. And we said we don’t even know when you would write this book, Mary, you have you don’t even have, you’re not even acting like this is the thing that’s important to you. Right? They say if you want to know what’s important to you, in your life, look at your calendar in your checkbook. I mean, I don’t have a checkbook, but you know, your, your, your bank, printout, whatever. And I think I might have like one book of checks somewhere. But what Yeah, I definitely have one somewhere.

Mary Marantz
Digital, yay. And so, you know, we first started looking at like, what do I need to let go of what is good, but not great? What is the actual 20% that’s giving me 80% of results, and the other 80% needs to go. So we started, you know, slowly, taking down the number of weddings slowly taking down the number of courses, the number of launches, we were doing, like really focusing in on what was actually working, which is just a great thing to do, regardless of if you’re trying to pivot or not. So starting to say, how do we make time for this thing that we say matters. And then the other was the financial side. And that’s, you know, making sure that you are starting to build up those cushions of emergency funds, whatever makes you feel like if we hit you know, if we did this thing, and it just didn’t work for a while? What is an amount of time we would want to give this thing to really give it a chance? Is that six months is it 12 months. For some people that might be they want to see two years for some people might be three months, but really starting to make sure you are financially in a position where that new thing you’re doing doesn’t immediately have to be what’s putting food on the table. And so both of those things require quitting. Well, and one of my favorite books I’ve ever read is quitter from Johnny cuff, where he talks about there is integrity, and character and grit forged in leaving a thing Well, it’s delaying instant gratification to say, How do I close out this chapter of my life? were the people that I owed things to the people that I wanted to honor that relationship, they feel like we ended on a good note. Because the last thing you want is that following you into a new field of somebody saying, you know, I never got what I want what I’m supposed to get from them.

Laylee Emadi
Oh, I love that. I feel like you know, circling back to what you said about it taking you five years of working alongside your coach to really carve out the time and do it in what was the right way for you. I just love hearing that. Because I think so often people see the end result and they just think, wow, that happened fast that happen out of nowhere. She was just like this phenomenal wedding photographer and now she’s this phenomenal author and like, that’s cool. I’m going to do that too. And then you get really discouraged when it doesn’t happen in that way. And of course, that’s discouraging, when that’s what you’re thinking you’re seeing. I actually have to say, though, I feel like you’ve always been really transparent with the process, which I’ve loved following along with, just like you said, like on Instagram and, and just tracking what you’re doing. You’ve always been transparent about that. But if somebody were to just kind of like, stumble upon someone else’s success, that’s what they see is like that iceberg of like, oh, there it is, like, there’s the perfect, you know, end result, and you’re not seeing the five years of work that it took you. So I just think that’s such an encouragement to hear that because things don’t happen overnight. Typically.

Mary Marantz
Yeah, they really don’t. And I’ll tell you, the things that do are not really the things that last Justin and I were just talking about that this this morning, there’s some new things we want to try with, like my show where we want to try to, you know, do some like video edits, while we’re actually recording things like that. And like he was talking about, hey, like, maybe we could move to you having guests coming in, in person. And I just said to him, you know, I think I’m at a stage in my business in my life, where I do not want to do anything that does not have the structure, the systems, the workflow in place to make it consistent, because what I am most likely to do, what a lot of creatives are most likely to do is to go, that’s so shiny and new and beautiful, and they’re doing it and I want to do it too. And you launch it, it’s exciting to announce it’s exciting to launch. It’s exciting to start. That’s the throw the confetti moment, and then you’re three weeks in, and it falls off. And you’re four weeks in and you hate yourself because something else has just fallen off again. And I really might I it’s I hate this news for all of us listening myself, number one included, because it’s not something I’m naturally gifted at. But the secret of most wild quote unquote, overnight success is consistency over the long haul. And man, do I not want that to be true? You know, the tagline for my show, Larry Moran show is slow growth equals strong rates. And I say to Justin all the time, why didn’t we choose overnight success is super easy. And everything we touch turns to gold as our life mantra because like, then that would be true in our lives. It doesn’t work that way. But you know what I mean? It’s like these things that are the hardest tends to be the things that actually produce the most fruit.

Laylee Emadi
That is the hardest truth, I think for almost any of us to hear, especially those who are all of us listening probably are in the creative industry, obviously. And that is so hard because I love a good shiny new thing. Like I chase new projects, like their candy. And it’s such a problem. And it is so hard to like scale yourself back from that. So I appreciate hearing it because I feel like I love that your tagline is slow, slow growth equals strong roots. I’ve talked about it a lot just on my own social media quoting you. And being like this has made such an impact hearing that the first time years ago that you’ve said it has stuck with me, because it’s the hardest truth, but it is one of the most like life changing truths that I think somebody can really accept into their lives. So appreciate that.

Mary Marantz
Well, that’s 100% Justin, Justin said that to me. And I say that, you know, and the second book that I’ve written and I say that right now that he said it to me. And then 15 years later, saying that to me, I’ve sort of finally started to accept it. But it’s it’s not fun, and it is there. So like, that’s the thing, and social media will tell you, there are all these things you can be doing, which quickly becomes there, all these things you should be doing in our heads, right? It’s like a, b and c becomes A through Z, then circle back around to the double A’s. And so we really have to be very wise and good stewards and have that discipline to say a lot of people are doing that. And they’re doing it really well. But I in my current set of obligations I’m already committed to could not do it well, so I will choose to hold off. That’s hard, because we want to do all the things I know I do. But it’s a rarely works out the way you want it to.

Laylee Emadi
Yeah, it’s definitely hard, but I feel like there’s just also so much freedom that’s like packed into that realization. So I love it and I I’m here for it. And it’s definitely something that is a work in progress, I think for all of us. Yeah. Not something that comes easy. Okay, well, this has been I feel like there’s just so much that you’ve already given our listeners today and even me I feel like this is just really well timed for me personally. So I’m selfishly very excited about this conversation. But I would I would also just love to hear you know, I always have to have to ask this and I feel like I’m very excited to see what you have to say about it but if you had to choose kind of an unpopular opinion or two or three or however many you want but what what would be your unpopular opinion or take on the concept of, of chasing a new dream or of making a big pivot inside or outside of the business that you are working on growing and that you’ve worked on growing for so long?

Mary Marantz
Oh, goodness, I’m an unwell okay. So when you were just saying, unpopular opinion, the first thing that came to mind and I don’t know if It actually relates specifically to pivoting. So maybe I’ll come up with a different one after that. But I’ll tell you the one that just first came to my mind. I have an unpopular opinion about vulnerability as commodity. No, do I think there is a position and a place for being vulnerable and sharing the hard parts of your story with your people publicly 100%. But this pressure that I see social media, putting on people that the instant it happens to you, you are somehow required to go process that process that in a very public spotlight sort of way, when you haven’t even figured out how you feel about it, are we going to heal Are we going to have any kind of like, victory over the situation, I just I don’t think it’s wise, because here’s the biggest fear I have for it is that you will show up, you will share this very hard thing, you’ll get a lot of dopamine hits and reactions on that post. And tomorrow, you will wake up feeling lonelier than you did the day before. Because people on social media, for the most part, are not doing life with you. They’re they’re observing your life, they’re interacting with your life, but they’re not going to be that kind of steady support system. So I feel like that scares me. I feel like that’s a huge reason we see. You know, not all of the reason, but one of the reasons we see a huge mental health issue around social media is just this. We feel like we’re not authentic, if we’re not just dumping it all out. What are your thoughts on that?

Laylee Emadi
Oh, my gosh, I’m literally like, if you guys could see me right now. I’m like, aggressively she like nodding my head along because I cannot agree more. And I feel like the pressure to almost like one up other people’s struggles by sharing your own is another part of this. And I just, I feel like it adds to competition and adds to feeling awful about yourself. And so many people struggle, because I feel like I don’t know about you. But a lot of people come to me and they say like, well, I don’t really have like anything really like life altering or struggle, like a struggle to share. So I don’t have a story to share. And I’m like, that’s not those two things do not have to be intertwined. Like that’s a way. And and again, I agree with you that I think in addition to that people are not doing life with you. They’re definitely observing your life. And it’s, it is really hard. I heard somebody say, I think it was Tyler spear, who is a floral designer. And we were at a conference together. And he said something about what to share on social media. And he was like, I don’t share, like the sob stories and the hard things that I’m going through, because because it’s like, how would you show up to a client meeting, for example, like I wouldn’t show up in my pajamas, like tear stained face. I mean, he didn’t say that. But that’s, that’s like the implication. And I was like, I’ve never heard somebody say it that way. Because I feel like we have gotten addicted to people’s vulnerability to the point where you feel like you’ve got to, you’ve got to show up in that same way. So I love that you shared that.

Mary Marantz
You know, I almost feel like another thing just to kind of add on to this before I did think of my thing for the pivot to my unpopular opinion. I feel like I this is what I perceive to be happening. And I always want to see, that’s my perception. I do not know if it’s the truth. But I feel like sometimes what can happen is something hard happens to someone. And because social media has messed with our head so much the first instinct almost becomes, man, that would be a powerful post man that like because it’s almost like, I dare you to not engage with this hard thing that I’m sharing, right? It’s almost like it forces engagement in a certain way. And I feel like that being the first thought or the way that our brain first processes it, it’s like we almost skip over our brain going, whoa, we’re in pain. This hurts. This is trauma. This is grief, this needs to be mourned and processed. And so it kind of gets shoved down and buried. And then we don’t understand stand when like 12 months later, we have a complete burnout or breakdown. Because we’ve just pushed it down and pushed it down and said, oh, let’s make lemonade out of these lemons. This good engagement lemonade. So that’s my final thought on that part. For the pivoting unpopular opinion is this and it kind of goes back to something you said earlier, you said oh my gosh, like you felt like it came out of nowhere. And it’s like, people were like, gosh, we didn’t see that coming, like what’s happening, what’s going on, when you are doing something? We saw this when we first started our business, when you are doing something that doesn’t make sense to people who are still very, very much inside their comfort zones. It’s not going to make sense to them, right? They’re not going to get it nobody’s going to catch the vision, the way that you have until it’s already out into the world. And so specifically, I remember when we were going to start our photography business and I had just finished Yale Law School to the tune of six figures plus student loans, the mother back home where I grew up of one of my frenemies and because those are very real things. I remember her very specifically with like a lot of like Glee in her voice saying to me, oh, all that schooling. Do you know what I mean? And and it was I’m not even being like caricature that is what it sounded like. And you could tell it, it felt like she took a little bit of like shot in Freud or whatever, at like golden girl falling, because I was not becoming a fancy lawyer, like everybody thought I was doing this business. And then fast forward 15 years, she has to kind of sit on the sidelines, and watch what that business became like, we caught the vision long before your critics, or the people who were kind of rooting for it not to work ever could. And that’s okay. That’s okay. Because what we cannot do, and I talked about this in my second book, actually, is I say, do you want to know, the first faces that I picture when something good happens in my life, the very first face that flashes through my mind, it is not my husband, my friends, my family, God, my dog is none of these, none of these people, it’s every single person who told me that I couldn’t. It’s every single critic in my life, because I want them I want to, I want to think about how they are going to react to that happening. But then I also do the same thing when something bad happens, they’re going to be the first ones judging it, they’re gonna be the first one saying, oh, guess it didn’t work out after all. And so what we do is we double our hard times, and we have our good times by giving people who are not for us a front row seat to our lives. So that’s my unpopular opinion about pivoting is we have to stop thinking about how other people are going to react to it good or bad. And, you know, we have to be willing to there, I saw a quote the other day that was like, do you know how good it is to just stay in your lane. And I was like, it is so true. If there’s one thing that like, defines my life for the last four or five years, it’s that I just stopped worrying about what other people were gonna say,

Laylee Emadi
Oh, my gosh, that is phenomenal. I mean, and, and also relatable content over here. I feel like once you hit, at least for me, like the past couple of years of being, you know, as I get a little older, and as things start to change, letting go of what people say or think about what it is that I’m doing has been the most life changing thing for me. So I love that you shared that. And I love that you shared your first unpopular opinion as well. I mean, I think the concept I love that you talked about, you know, before you even have a chance to process it, I feel like we let go of ourselves being human beings being people in order to publicize and like really take, you know, take that terrible situation and try to make like you said, me trying to make lemonade, but really what you’re doing is you’re dismissing the fact that you’re a human being who needs time to process in order to publicize on on heartache. And I hate that so but I love I love, love, love your unpopular opinion and pivoting I just think it’s something that so many people that stand in their way myself included up until recently. And when you can make that shift and when you can really be cognizant of it is when I think so much potential for like amazing things.

Mary Marantz
Yeah. You know, what I would add to that, that I think is important is at this point in the conversation, if there were a third party here, they would probably be very tempted to say this thing that I hear, you probably hear a lot of people really hear and that’s like, stop worrying so much about what people think of you. The truth is most people aren’t even thinking of you. They’re thinking of themselves. Now, that is true, mostly. But we also have to recognize that there are what there are people watching and rooting for you to fail. Oh, yeah, there are there that exists. Okay. You know, it’s like that whole thing about like, the people who like watch your page the most and don’t say anything, like, you know, they, they’re, they’re not there because they’re excited for you. That’s an important thing to consider. Because what I am saying is not Oh, don’t worry about people think they’re gonna think about you anyway. It’s like I am saying to you, maybe there is somebody who’s rooting for you to fail. And still, you have to stop caring what they think good or bad. Right? When something great or something hard happens. They do not get to be the one you think of first. No more.

Laylee Emadi
I love that. Yeah, the absolute real realistic thinking of like, I agree. I mean, there are people that are out there that are watching. So I love that you said that because that i do i can i can see it. Now everybody says Oh, it’s so much easier said than done. And like, yeah, they’re probably not watching me. We always used to say that in dance, you know, you’re in a dance class, and no one’s watching you. They’re focused on their own moves. No, they’re also probably watching you, because they want to make sure they’re not the worst in the class. Like, that’s a reality. And that’s okay to accept. But oh, my goodness, Mary, this was such a phenomenal conversation. I’m so grateful to you and for your time. And I know that our listeners are probably sitting there like feeling so encouraged to take those moves forward and to really step outside their comfort zone. So thank you.

Mary Marantz
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. And I love you, and you’ll have to be on my show next.

Laylee Emadi
Oh my gosh, I would be honored. And of course, you’re working on Book Two. And I’m so excited about that. So is there anything that you want to share in that regard? Like when can we When can we to keep an eye out for it? When

Mary Marantz
can we preorder. Oh, yeah, well, the first book is dirt. It came out last September. You can find that at the book dirt.com. When you go there, there should be a little pop up that says start reading chapter one. You can fill that out or If you want to go directly to that it’s bit.li slash the book dirt, th e Bo okay di rt.com and book two right now Fingers crossed, we have a release date of April 5, assuming COVID and shipping delays don’t change anything but April 5 is the day as of now. I imagine pre orders will probably start like January or February but if you head over to the book.com you can get on the list to be the first to know we’re at Mary Moran’s on all the socials.

Laylee Emadi
Oh, I will be the first to know and I’ll be the first order on number two copies again, somehow. I’ll have to do a giveaway for one of these copies. It’s so good you guys. So definitely go check it out. Thank you again, Mary. Thank you for show notes and resources mentioned on today’s episode head to so here’s the thing podcast.com. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I’d love to read your review on iTunes. Thanks so much for listening and I’ll catch you in the next episode.