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Podcasts are more popular than ever—so how does it fit into your business? My podcast producer, Haylee Gaffin, joins us in this episode of So, Here’s the Thing to share 5 reasons you should start a podcast!

Listen in as we discuss our experience in podcasting together for almost two years! We’re highlighting some unpopular opinions and even giving you insight on how to pitch yourself for podcasts (and how not to).

Get to Know Haylee (1:09)

Myth: There are too many podcasts out there. (1:44)

5 Reasons to Start a Podcast

1. Serve Your Audience (3:20)

In 2020, light listeners consumed over 10 hours of radio per week, 40 minutes less than an average listener. Via Neilson

2. Set Yourself Up as an Expert in Your Field (7:11)

3. Network & Connect with Industry Experts by Inviting Them Onto Your Show as a Guest (12:04)

Build your podcast before inviting on bigger names. (14:14)

Pitching Guests (14:50)

Growing & Learning from Your Guests (17:57)

4. Using Your Podcast as a Marketing Tactic (20:28)

5. Monetizing Your Podcast (30:33)

Bonus: Pitching Yourself (37:34)

Recap (47:17)

Links
gaffincreative.com
gaffincreative.com/podcastbudget
clockinginpodcast.com
instagram.com/hayleegaffin

Review the transcript for this episode below>>

Laylee Emadi 0:05
Welcome to so here’s the thing where we share candid conversations that lift the veil on what it takes to find success, even if that means sharing a few unpopular opinions. I’m your host Laylee Emadi grab some coffee or cocktail, and let’s get real.

Laylee Emadi 0:22
Hello friends. Welcome. I’m so excited that you’re here and I am pumped about this session. I’m joined by Haylee Gaffin She is actually the producer of my podcast. The so here’s the thing podcast and I am thrilled for you guys to learn from her. We are going to be talking about why you should be starting a podcast why you should think about starting a podcast how it can grow your audience. And if you’re sitting there thinking, I’m really not sure I want to start a podcast we have something for you too. We’re going to be talking all about how to gain visibility by pitching yourself for other people’s podcast. This is going to be content packed. And so I want you to take notes I want you to like look alive pay attention and and keep on before we dive in Haylee. Tell us a little bit about yourself why you’re passionate about podcasting what you love so much about this world.

Haylee Gaffin 1:10
Awesome. Thank you so much lately, I am Haylee Gaffin of Gaffin Creative where we produce and help creative entrepreneurs launch their podcasts. I love the podcasting world because it is such a value packed industry, where everyone has a space, there are so many opportunities for creatives and entrepreneurs and just people who want to start podcasts, whether it’s storytelling or historical, whatever the case might be. There is a space for everyone. And I just really love that it exists in this world.

Laylee Emadi 1:43
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that is like before we dive into the reasons people should consider starting a podcast that’s like a myth that I would love to like bust with you is that so many people think like, oh, there are so many podcasts out there already. Like, I don’t want to be adding to noise. I don’t want to be just another voice like, how do you feel about that?

Haylee Gaffin 2:03
You have Instagram, you have a blog, you have social media, there’s nothing holding you back from starting this podcast, outside of your own insecurities of will it fail, and it might, but that’s okay. Like you can make a podcast and have a podcast set up and created for yourself. It’s not necessarily to grow and be the biggest podcast out there. Because if you look at the top 10 podcasts in any category, they are, quote unquote famous people. So I think we need to get out of the mindset that like that is the end all be all goal is to get on those lists. And it’s to serve the people you’re already serving to serve the audience you already have on all the platforms that you already have in a bigger capacity.

Laylee Emadi 2:52
Yeah, I love that. I totally agree. And I’m excited to dive into this. So the first thing we want to talk with you guys about is how it is a really great way to serve your current audience, and ways that you can think about actually incorporating that into your goal setting of what you want your podcast to look like. So I know Haley has a lot of really great thoughts on this. So I’m gonna let her kick us off with like, reason one, you should think about starting a podcast.

Haylee Gaffin 3:21
Yeah, so serving your audience is a huge one. It’s a way to consistently show up with new content for your audience. One thing I did want to highlight is according to Nielsen’s podcast listener, buying power database, in 2020, what they call light podcast listeners, which is like there’s a light, an average and the heavy podcast listener. But the light podcast listener consumed over 10 hours of radio a week, which is not just like radio in the car, but it’s podcasting specifically. So there’s podcasting on devices that like your cell phone, it’s podcasting through speakers through computers, 10 hours, which is only like 40 minutes less than an average podcast listener. So I think it’s really important to to note that most of your audience is actively listening to podcasts already. And giving them an avenue in which they’re already loving, to listen to you and hear your content. Hear Your value is one of those things that I just think is invaluable.

Laylee Emadi 4:23
Yeah, I agree. And I also think, like, for me, I love Instagram stories. I love showing my face. I love sharing my voice. But I know a lot of people out there who struggle with like showing up and adding personality into their personal brands. And the podcast is a great way to do that. Like I know personally, I don’t listen to a ton of podcasts, which is weird coming from a podcaster. But I would consider myself like a light listener for sure. I only listened to like a couple of podcasts regularly. And then I’ll take in an episode here, here or there from other podcasters and I feel like I get to know them because you’re hearing somebody voice in your ear, it’s not like you’re just reading a blog post or reading an Instagram caption. And you’re not quite sure how genuine they’re being, I feel like there’s just so much that you can convey to your current audience by using your voice and being really genuine in the way that you present yourself. Like, I think so many of my current audience, who has been with me from the start of my podcast, which we started hailing like a year and a half, almost two years ago, and being able to take them along that journey with us, I feel like they know me better, they trust me more than know, like, and trust factor is like 10 times easier to achieve, because you’re just talking to your people. And I love that.

Haylee Gaffin 5:38
Yeah. And I think it’s really cool that, like, we get to see your podcast also transform with your business as well, because it has come such a long way. Like, when we launched this podcast, the creative educator Academy didn’t even exist yet. Like, it’s so cool to see how your audience has changed how they’ve also grown with you how some of your guests have even become educators through the podcast itself. And being able to, to give the audience that you have education from other educators is so cool to me like it’s like fangirling over here. But I just think it’s really awesome to see the progression of podcasts can have not only for you, but for your guests as well. And for your listeners as well.

Laylee Emadi 6:25
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree the journey has been insane. And that’s why I am such an advocate for this. And like, why I was so excited to have you on to talk about it. Because it’s like, having this conversation with you. It’s like living real life in front of all of our new friends. I love that. And if we can feel this way, like you guys can feel this way too. It is, it was overwhelming, for sure for me to reach out and be like, okay, I want to start this podcast, I have this vision for it, I have a goal for it, which is hard to come up with on its own. But once you get to that point, I don’t want anybody who’s watching this to feel like there’s not space for them, or they don’t know what to do next. And so I’m really I’m pumped to continue this conversation. So I love that idea of serving our audiences. I love this second reason that people should start a podcast I’m gonna let you like. Yeah.

Haylee Gaffin 7:11
So the second reason is to set yourself up as an expert in your field, an expert in what you do, and allowing you to really own that space, especially when you’re trying to convey the messaging that you want in your brand. So whether you are an educator in the creative space that’s looking to focus on Facebook ads, or you’re looking to serve photographers in creating a better client experience, or you’re looking to you know, you’re a florist that is looking to create more business education for other florists. There are so many niches that allow you to create, you’re set yourself up as that expert and a podcast is the perfect example of how to do it. I really like the idea of taking a podcast and allowing yourself to explore all the other avenues in your business that other florists or photographers or whatever your your industry is, don’t actually get to explore or they’re not thinking through, like, Oh, I should be doing this in my business. I just think it’s a powerful resource to allow your potential clients to see what you do and how you do and how you’ve made it successful, but also hearing from other people, too.

Laylee Emadi 8:28
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, I think that there are so many ways to establish yourself as an expert in your industry. But I think a podcast is, like I mentioned in like our first point, it’s a really good way to speed that process along and to show up and share so much content, so much knowledge, so much information that immediately gets to your audience where they’re at and tells them like this person knows what they’re talking about. This is like, no BS, like they are really not faking it. They truly have this expertise, and we need to treat them in that manner. And I love that so much. I mean, I think that it can be really difficult in a world that is so full of people who do the same kinds of things on social media, and through blogging and things like that, where it can kind of be hard to establish yourself as a leading expert. Like I don’t think it’s hard necessarily to share that you have a lot of expertise in an area. But I think to get yourself to like that leadership level can be really difficult. And I think that by having ownership of a platform, like a podcast, where you’re sharing your knowledge, or having experts come in and share their knowledge and treat you as a peer really helps kind of like lift up the public perception of what it is that you know, and what it is that you do. I think it’s really easy for people to look at you and be like, Oh, yeah, that person knows what they’re doing. But then as soon as you start to kind of like take on that leadership role. They’re like, Oh, not only does this person know what they’re doing, but they’re like someone that is a go to In my mind, in this area, and I love that

Haylee Gaffin 10:03
We hear how important blogging is in, in the space for SEO and all of that. And we’ll get to that later too and in this session, but I think that we need to look at it as basically a resource for our potential clients to coming in. I have no idea who this person is, oh, they have a podcast, let me go listen to an episode. And it’s like a free little mentoring session or consultation for them to get to know who you are, and see you in that in that space when they may, you know, a website is only going to tell them so much. Most people want to get in with an inquiry and talk to you and figure out if you’re someone that they want to work with. And this just pushes that that process a little faster.

Laylee Emadi 10:49
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that I’ve also seen a lot of success in this realm with like a combination of point number one of serving our current audience. And point number two of setting yourself up as a leading expert in your field, like I’ve firsthand seen progress in this area with the with the start of my podcast, because it really does. And we’ll talk about marketing later. But it really does kind of open people’s eyes to what you have to share. And it really makes you seem more accessible to work with them as well. So I love that for sure. Is there anything else you want to like add in about setting yourself up as an expert in your field to podcasting? Or are you ready to move on to number three,

Haylee Gaffin 11:29
I think number three is good, because it does still add a little bit to number two. And number one, I feel like I will go ahead and put this out there that all of these points and like reasons for starting a podcast play really well together. And it’s almost as if you need to look at them all as one major goal in and you should have it for your podcast, versus like, Oh, this is my one goal, or this is my other goal. So yeah, let’s go on to number three.

Laylee Emadi 11:57
Yes, I love this one. It’s one of my favorites, because it has worked so well for me. So the third point is to be able to network and connect with industry experts by inviting them on to your show as a guest. So I before I say anything, I will give the disclaimer that a lot of the experts that have come on to my show I had pre existing relationships with I already knew them, I had cultivated relationships with them throughout my time inside this industry. And so I will share that caveat of, it’s always nice to start with your friends, it’s always nice to start with people who you already know who you already know, or in your corner who already trust you, um, who want to cheer you on who want to show up for you. So I want to share that if you are still like thinking about starting a podcast or if you’re not thinking about starting a podcast, the number one piece of advice in the whole industry I have is to make friends, make real friends, make genuine connections, and build genuine relationships. And then once you have a platform, invite those people on because they’re going to want to be a part of it. So that’s like a side note. And like pardon my tangent. But I have also seen after the first year, once my podcast was established, I had industry leading experts pitching me to get on my show, which was mind blowing, like I’m just I’m in as humbly as I can put this I was literally like, these people who I have watched forever, are pitching me to be a part of something I’m doing. And it was, it was mind blowing to me. And so I want to put that out there to say like that might take some time to build up to it took me over a year to get those people knocking on my door. But you now have a reason to knock on their door. And I am pumped to hear your opinion on all of this, Haley, because you are somebody who handles a lot of pitches, and who works with a lot of pitches. And I know that like a bonus, we’re going to talk about ways to pitch yourself to give up on other people’s podcast. But I’m really excited to hear about like the best way to connect with people who you look up to in order to create connections and have them on your show as guest experts.

Haylee Gaffin 14:07
Yes. So I will share an unpopular opinion because so here’s the thing doesn’t. But I do have an unpopular opinion when it comes to using this as a networking tool. Because while it is I mean, it’s one of the main reasons that you should start a podcast for networking. I think it’s really important to go about it, like you said, in an authentic way in what’s your focus on inviting friends on and building up your podcast before you try hitting those bigger names. And your friends might be the big names. So like when it comes to actually pitching the experts that you want on your show. I think it’s there’s a few things that are important that a lot of people don’t pay attention to and one is are you an established show that they should be spending their time on Because you don’t want to pitch too early for those bigger names, when your your shows not established yet. At the same time, you need to be pitching them with an idea in mind of what you want to talk to you. Because if they don’t know you, they don’t know your audience. And you definitely want to come to them with an idea of my audience is this, they want to hear this. And I think you’d be a good fit to talk about this. Because the last thing you want to do is make them do any work on their end, if they don’t already have a topic that they’re ready to talk about. So many educators will have an idea of like, you know, I have this, this course I’m trying to promote. So I’d like to talk about something regarding it. But you don’t know that because they haven’t launched the course yet. But if you go to them with an idea, and then they can come back and say actually, I’d rather talk about this, that’s better than you going to them and saying like, hey, I want you to be on my show, you can talk about whatever you want to talk about. Because Well, that’s it sounds like a nice suggestion of like opening up your platform to whatever they want. Now they’re having to think through, well, what do I actually want to talk about? Because I don’t know their audience. I don’t know who they’re serving. So that’s an unpopular opinion there. But at the same time, I do think it’s important to have that, that concept of like, I’m using this podcast to build my brand and to build my name. And how can I do that? I can do it by going in networking with this person, and having them on my show, and we can cross our audiences? Because it’s helpful for them. It’s helpful for me. So

Laylee Emadi 16:33
yeah, I love that. I totally agree. I mean, I think that having a pitch that’s really well thought out is so important when you’re trying to network with industry experts, and industry leaders, for sure. Whenever I pitch to anyone, honestly, whether they would consider themselves a leader, an expert or not, even if it’s just somebody I want on the show, I always pitch with one to two topic ideas. And then I leave it open ended like you said Haylee where I give them the opportunity. And I say, you know, like, these are topics that I admire you for and then I know that you’re known for. But if you have something that you’re working on right now, if you have something new that you want to talk about, if you have something on your mind, or on your heart or something you’re passionate about, let me know, like, I want you on the show, period, end of story. But I do want to give them resources, I want to give them guidance. And I want to make sure that they’re they’re feeling like I thought this pitch out. And I’m not just pitching them because of their name, or because of their status in the industry. I’m pitching them because I want their content and their knowledge to be shared with my audience. Which side note segue. If you as you’re thinking about all of this, I want you to think about your audience more than you think about yourself. So yes, it’s cool to like, talk to these industry leaders. But it’s really all about what’s going to translate to your audience what’s going to serve your audience. Well remember that first tip that we talked about?

Haylee Gaffin 17:57
Well, I know that we had talked about this earlier, before we started recording, and how you can kind of educate yourself a little bit through having others on your show. And I know you have first hand experience in this, and I hear it in all your episodes. But maybe you want to share a little bit more about that.

Laylee Emadi 18:16
Yeah, oh my gosh, yes, this is something that like, it sounds loci like something that would be this is a secret, but I really I’m very open about it. I’m open about it with my guests. I’m open about it with my audience. The coolest part about having a podcast and having guest speakers on your podcast is a You don’t have to be an expert in what it is that your person is teaching about, like your guest person is teaching about. And be. Don’t ever try to present yourself as an expert in something that they’re teaching on. I love to say like, Oh, hey, I literally don’t know anything about this topic. Let’s talk about it, I get to learn something new, I get to walk away with like, essentially free coaching, in that free coaching gets translated into like to my audience, so they get free coaching out of it, too. So I am glad that you brought that up, Haylee, because I know that it was like a conversation you and I had, but I do feel really passionate about passionately about it. Because we do not need to be experts in everything that we share about on our show. We’re trying to provide content for our audience, for the people listening. And it’s kind of just like a really great perk to be able to get that content for ourselves and to ask questions like burning questions that we’ve had. So many people have come on my show to talk about, I don’t know, like legal stuff or finance stuff or things that I don’t necessarily would never consider myself an expert in. And I’ve been like, Oh my gosh, this is like mind blowing. And I feel like I’ve learned so much. So, you know, as as an educator, I truly believe in continually educating myself and I feel like this is a great way to do it and a really personal way to do it as well.

Haylee Gaffin 19:51
Yeah, I think also highlighting the fact that if you have a podcast about one specific niche, this one point allows you to spread your topics to other things that you nessus aren’t necessarily qualified to speak on, and just allows your audience to expand as well. So, yeah, I think that’s really awesome point.

Laylee Emadi 20:12
Yeah, I love it. Honestly, it’s like such a perk, you guys, I can’t I can’t speak to that enough is, it’s something that I didn’t really think about in the beginning. And I think if I had, I would have probably started it a little sooner because it’s like, oh, wow, I’m learning with my audience. It’s so cool. So let’s talk about this one is huge. So we might spend a little bit of time on it a little bit more time than the others. But using your podcast, as a marketing tactic. So using it as a as not just something that’s like a fun project and a fun endeavor, but something that really feeds into promoting and growing visibility for your brand. And for your, you know, for you as a as a personal brand. So tell me all the things that you want to that you want to talk about here, because I could literally take over and ramble forever.

Haylee Gaffin 20:59
Well, I think this, this is a really good opportunity to kind of talk about our retreat that we went on. Because I feel like that was, in a nutshell, the retreat that we had was exactly this point of utilizing it as a marketing tactic. Because, one, we got to plan out an entire marketing plan, at least for the first two quarters, topics, all of the things. But not only that, now, we’ve really honed in on what this looks like for your brand moving forward with growing your email list and driving people to products that you sell, and services that you offer retreats that you offer masterminds that you offer, like all of the things that you have, that you make money on in your business, are now avenues in which we can drive to from the podcast, which isn’t something we’ve always done, you know, when you first started, you didn’t have as many offerings as you do. Now, you didn’t have as many services that you were trying to promote for the audience of your podcast. And now it’s switching to your offering, you have a weekly newsletter, I think that goes out to educators, and you have all of these downloadables that we’re working on. And some other things that are secret projects. I won’t give away your all your secrets. But I just think it’s a really awesome avenue to instead of, and we’ll get into monetizing your podcast. But instead of promoting other brands out there is there’s an opportunity to promote yourself and to promote your own brand to grow your list to drive people to your social media channels, whatever your end goal is for each episode. And that’s I think that’s the really cool thing about it is not every episode has to have the same goal, every episode can drive to a different thing. It’s just a matter of making your overall marketing plan match your business’s marketing plan, and I’m talking about like just for the podcast, it should have some kind of goal itself. And then gold per episode, whether you’re, you know, trying to grow an audience or trying to sell a product, or trying to monetize your podcast as well. So we’ll get into that too.

Laylee Emadi 23:16
But yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that like, first of all, yes. So to backtrack, when Haley’s talking about the retreat that we that we had, I’ll be doing a podcast episode about this coming out soon. But we I take my team on an annual planning retreat every single year, hence, annual, obviously, Oh, my gosh. So what we do is we talk about kind of like our goals, what we want to be focusing on and a big thing that we focused on, Haley as my producer was there. And she and I were talking about how we really want to make sure that the podcast is doing its job in terms of serving our audience, well, meeting them where they’re at, and then bringing more audience members in who can then enjoy and learn as well. And so And in addition, as Haylee mentioned, actually driving people to offers that I now have that I didn’t necessarily have in the beginning. So if you’re feeling overwhelmed by this step, come back to me. It is not to overwhelm you, you do not need an offer right now, if you’re like waiting to start a podcast because you’re like, well, I don’t have a course I don’t have a mastermind. I don’t have a whatever. It doesn’t matter. I didn’t have any of that in the beginning. My course was in production, but it had nothing to do with my podcast. I really just wanted to start a podcast because I thought it would be really fun to share with the community. Obviously, since I’m doing this conference, I really enjoy sharing content and knowledge and bringing people who we look up to in an accessible way to our creative community. And that was my goal. Now the offers came because our businesses will continue to grow with us. And what better way to have a pre existing place to plug your content to people who already know love and trust you then a podcast so that’s a little bit of background about where that started but i totally agree Haylee like i think it was so cool to be able to sit down and say where am i missing ways to serve the audience like we talked about in point number one like i want to give them more content like i want them to be able to listen to an episode then go download a resource that’s going to help them even more introduce them to guest speakers and then drive them to that guest speakers offer teach them a topic in a solo episode and then have that drive to an offer that i have and so i really think that it’s a great way to educate and empower your people and also to help them have an easy way to share about you if i downloaded something for free off of somebody’s podcast which i do all the time whenever i listen to other podcasts i am a show notes kind of girl i will go into the i will do a deep dive it’s like when you watch the movie or watching a movie and you’re an imdb kind of girl that’s also me like i wikipedia and i imdb every celebrity and everything they’ve ever been in i do the same thing with podcasts and so i fall down the rabbit hole and they download things and then i text my friends and i’m like hey you are working on this same thing in your business go get this downloadable and so that is the kind of marketing that can really happen with podcasts it’s not just your simple like let’s share this on instagram it’s like person to person referral to referral like the marketing behind a podcast makes me so passionate that i just did this dance move like i’m so i’m it makes me so excited and so happy because it truly is marketing from a giving standpoint so if you’re one of those people who is like me who struggles to sell i hate selling things it is i understand like yeah i know a lot of people watching this and be like but i heard selling is serving it is i just don’t enjoy it this is perfect because he wants to sell anything right Haylee like literally all i do is talk about free things all the time and then people just want to buy.

Haylee Gaffin 27:00
I think you made a really good point and maybe didn’t even realize you made it but the you said something that about you going to the show notes if your show notes are on your website you were driving people to your website when they’re there they are going to start exploring that site and seeing what all you do even if you don’t talk about it in your podcast and i think that is that in and of itself as a whole reason to start a podcast like you are driving people to your site it is marketing you without you ever having to market yourself and then i did want to go back because you said something else about when you started you’re serving your audience and like i just want to run through the the four points we’ve made so far of serving your audience setting yourself up as a leading expert in your field and then networking connecting with industry experts by inviting them on as guests and utilizing it in your marketing those don’t have to happen like at the beginning like you said we when we started this podcast number one was our only goal we had no other goals of you know i want to drive this many people in this many subscribers and it was serving the audience you already had and i think you did it i mean you’re still doing that every single episode does that and it’s not you know you’re not trying to sell anything in your show because it’s free content they don’t have to go click on anything they don’t have to go do anything if they don’t want to but you’re still providing value and i think that’s important that from the very beginning that first reason of serving your audience needs to be the primary goal.

Laylee Emadi 28:42
Yeah absolutely i completely agree i mean i think that i love the way that i started i love that i started it without having a ton of things to polish or you know any kind of other agenda i think it made it really organic and really fun for me to experiment and to be able to like find my voice in the podcast and to be able to find my interview style to be able to find the way that i host i mean hosting in itself and and Haylee and i have something in the works of resource in that work so if you are enjoying this conversation make sure that you stay tuned in the future but we’re working on something and it’s just been such a long journey and so many ups and downs but the start of it if you can just get in there and get started nothing beats actual experience nothing and the cool part is when you start out not many people will probably listen right off the bat unless you do like the huge launch which is totally an option but if you’re not there yet that’s okay take that time to find your voice um i will say like side note haley is my producer because i started out by editing all my own episodes and i knew how to edit because i was a former dance teacher who edited music all the time but man it takes me like eight times longer to do it than it takes Haylee so like finding your groove finding your way making mistakes all of that is part of it just another tangent side no I love that you went through all of those points that we’ve already gone through. So talk to me about our fifth point, which is monetizing your podcast. This, again, is not necessarily something that I am huge big into. But I do love that I’m, for the most part able to kind of cover the cost of the podcast, if nothing more, and eventually, maybe we’ll monetize it. Beyond that, but but I would love to hear your thoughts on anybody who’s wondering about is a podcast, something that I can make a monetizable offering? Is it something that I can call a revenue stream?

Haylee Gaffin 30:33
Yes. So I think that there’s a couple of things I do want to go through here. The first is a lot of people don’t have what most of us would call passive revenue of a shop, or course or a, you know, free downloadable, if you don’t have any of that, it’s totally fine. Um, I think a lot of people start with the intent of trying to make money on a podcast and realizing it’s not as easy as it looks, you have to build an audience, you have to understand like what your audience likes, and you have to continue to serve them. And I will say, if you are starting a podcast, with your primary goal being to monetize it, I don’t think you should be a podcaster. Because there’s a lot of work. And there’s a lot of money that does go into podcasting that you don’t necessarily think about unless you’re doing it all yourself. And I think that’s something to consider to have, like, we’ve talked about this where you consider your podcast production, an advertising or marketing expense, because of what what it turns into long term. But absolutely, yeah, with monetizing your podcast, you’re looking at going through an ad agency or securing your own advertisements for your podcast, and they’re gonna want to know the details of how many people are listening to your podcast, let me set up this conversion. And let’s do this thing where we see how many people are actually converting from your podcast? And how many times are they actually going to support your podcast. So it’s one of those things where you definitely, it’s amazing to monetize the podcast, like, if you can get it and do it, go for it. But don’t go in with that as your primary goal, because you will forget about the important thing of serving the audience. Because if you’re not serving your audience, they are not going to continue to listen anymore. And then you’re losing all of your advertisements that you’ve secured, because it’s not converting, you’re not getting the lessons or the downloads, you’re losing subscribers, because you’ve stopped serving that audience. On the other side, when you do get off the monitor the monetization, when you did do get sponsors and support for your podcast, and you do start earning money. There are a lot of things that go into it. Like how much should I be charging? And I mentioned this a few minutes ago, but how big is my audience? And what can I charge for that audience size? If I have 5000 people per episode downloading, what does that convert to for each brand that I’m pitching and is my is the brand that I’m pitching going to annoy the audience that I’m listening, or that’s listening to me, because the last thing you like, I’m I’m a podcast listener, I hate ads. I like I don’t know anyone who actually enjoys them. But I do understand that they are there to serve the podcast host. So I just think that’s a really, monetization is a goal to have in mind. I just don’t think it should be your primary goal. I think it should come later in your episodes or it. It plays in line with all of the other reasons that you want to start a podcast, such as serving your audience growing your brand, setting yourself up. That’s an expert and networking with others.

Laylee Emadi 33:45
Yeah, for sure. I agree. I mean, I think that another point to consider here is that like monetizing your podcast is great through sponsors I love and I’m so thankful for any sponsorships that I have that are in alignment with my show. Those are the ones that you’ll hear ads for during my show are ones that I make sure are in alignment with either the topic that episode or my brand, they always need to be in alignment with my brand. But aside from that, I actually would consider it like you said, Haley, I consider the podcast to be part of my marketing budget. And the monetization comes from converting listeners into clients for me. So that’s where I consider my podcast. And a revenue stream is the return on the investment of time that I’m making and the return on the investment of finances that I’m making into creating this resource, this podcast, it is coming back to me. So I don’t want to scare anybody away by thinking like, oh, if I have to start a podcast, I have to get all these sponsors. I have to do all this. That’s not necessarily true. You can literally just be making money off of the fact that you are then creating customers out of this free resource that you are putting out into the world without expectation, but I love Haylee’s point of we don’t want to necessarily go into this process thinking like, this is gonna be a huge moneymaker. Because I never want to set any of you guys up for false expectations or hope. You can definitely plug affiliate links for things. I know I’ve seen success in that there are so many routes that you can take, but just know that like, at the end of the day, it will never be for nothing like you’ll never it is free. It’s a good resource. It’s great for a community, it’s great for building a brand awareness. But even building a brand awareness is going to turn into money at some point. Because while I don’t think we need to be necessarily money driven, I do think that it’s important to be realistic that like we need to girl’s gotta eat, you know what I mean? So like, I gotta make a little bit of money somewhere. And so I do think that it helps you become profitable in some way. But it doesn’t have to just be from sponsorships. So don’t let that stop you don’t let that stand in your way.

Haylee Gaffin 35:47
Yes, I completely agree. And another thing like you had touched on the affiliate links, you can create ads for affiliate links, we’ve done it on. So here’s the thing. We’ve any of those ads that you hear are affiliate links. And I think that’s a really great way to approach monetizing your podcast in the beginning, if you don’t have the the marketing tactics have downloadables, courses, shops, whatever it is that you’re driving people to purchase from you. But if you do end up having those that plays into a marketing role, or a bigger marketing plan as well when it comes to having those guests on because one question I get a lot is like, well, if I have the same 150 listeners every single episode or however many listeners you have, if I have those same ones, how and they’re not converting in the first few times I promote this product, how do I know it’s going to work. And that’s where those other guests audiences come in. Because while you’re talking about their topic, you can still add an advertisement for your course for your shop for your services, in general words in your intro and outro. Like I think that’s a really important thing to note is the the opportunities and the audience that you’re going to serve are endless when it comes to the podcasting world because you could have 250 new listeners from this week’s episode with whoever it is that’s on your show. And 560 new listeners next week from that audiences or that guests audience. So I just think that’s a really important thing to note when you’re trying to monetize and strategizing how you’re going to approach that as well.

Laylee Emadi 37:30
Yes, I totally love that. And I completely agree. Okay, so I would love to hit our bonus. Now, if you are down to talk about if you are not quite ready to start your own podcast, let’s talk about pitching yourself to get on other people’s podcast. So let’s get started with that Haylee. I’m gonna let you I’m gonna let you kick it off. Well, you know how I feel about this, um, my, this is one of my like, favorite pieces of managing podcasts, as well as my least favorite because I love getting a good pitch. A solid pitch, like makes my job easy. So that I’m not having to vet someone and do extra work on my end, or a podcast host like if you are pitching a podcast host. And you’re having to create more work for them to dig in. And you’re, you’re not going to get the gig. Like, I’ll just be completely honest, I hate to like hurt someone’s feelings. But you have to put yourself well. And so what goes into a good pitch is you’re telling them who you are, what you do, and providing a link to your website so that they can go check you out more if they need to give them examples of what you talk about. And if you’ve been on podcast before, link those they may not listen to them. But it gives them an idea of how you speak what you speak about and how how well you know your content. But if you’re not sharing what you want to talk about, and you’re just going to them saying oh, I can talk about whatever you want to talk about every single person on that they offer their show as a spot on their show to could talk about whatever they want to talk about. They know that already. It’s up to you to share what you’re good at what you know, and how well you can serve their audience. But then also providing that value of i know what I can do. Here it is I’m gonna lay it out. And then not only that, but providing prompt questions like, here are the things I would talk about. It doesn’t even have to be the questions that they would ask you but giving them an idea of like the flow of a conversation and what you would want to touch on so that they know what questions that you want to be asked. So I think that’s really important. A good podcast host is going to know the right questions to ask, even if you’re just providing a topic because they’ll drive that conversation. But if you’re giving them less work to do, you’re more likely to get on that show and to get in front of their audience. So I think that’s really I’m very passionate about pitching passionate about doing it the right way and actually providing the value for the hosts for the producer, and all of that. So

Laylee Emadi 40:08
Yeah, I I’m with you 100%, mostly because I get terrible pitches, and I get amazing pitches. And it has been quite the journey to navigate the two. I love all the advice that you gave, I completely back it up as as a host who’s deciding yes or no on people. And on if I’m going to have them on my show, I back up every single thing that you just said, some of the best pitches I’ve had have been just really clear and concise. It doesn’t have to be like massive essays, everything. Haylee just said, Don’t overthink it, don’t send me Please don’t send me like three people

Haylee Gaffin 40:43
bullet points are amazing. People don’t love to spend all their time in email. So, you know, creating a storybook of what you want to talk about is not ideal. But at the same time, giving enough information for them to know what you want to talk about is awesome. Another thing I did want to highlight too, is knowing who you’re pitching, because there are so there are people out there that? Well, I’ll say it this way, you can hire someone to go and pitch you for them, for yourself to all these podcasts. And that’s fine. I actually enjoy that. Because then if I have to say no or I want to come back, it’s not like I’m having to tell that person I’m telling the person pitching them that their job isn’t complete, and I need more information. But if you’re going to do that, know the get or know the host know who their audiences and listen to the episodes. Listen to, like the latest episodes, reference them if you have to, to show that you are intrigued with that podcast. But then not only that, go in and look for your category on their website, on on Apple on whatever player you listen to and see if they’ve covered your topic already. And if they have pitch them why it should be different, or why you should still come on the show to talk about it. But make sure you listen to that episode. Because there’s nothing worse than having this exact same episode with two different guests and giving no more value to the audience that they already have.

Laylee Emadi 42:15
So yeah, for sure. And I want to circle back to what you said about hiring somebody to do your pitching for you. I actually don’t love that so much. I’ve only in the hundreds of pitches I’ve gotten, I have only accepted from one person who was pitching for other people. Now that’s not to say you can’t have a team member do it or like have somebody who’s in your business, do it. I mean, like a publicist or somebody who specifically their company is built to pitch. And here’s what they do. And it’s super shady all they find every email address they can find for a podcast host and they blow that podcast host up with irrelevant information. They have found my personal email address, they found email addresses that I use throughout throughout my team, we’re getting like 20 of the same pitch, it doesn’t make sense for their person to be on the show. So I just did all this to caution you be careful who you hire, I would much rather get a well thought out pitch from a team member from a VA than from somebody who’s claiming that their job is to get you publicity. Just a word to the wise from somebody who has went gotten many, many, many, like hundreds and hundreds of pitches and just deleted them or mark them as spam because they sound so spammy. So I love that you brought that up because I probably would have forgotten to bring that up. And it is such a pet peeve of mine as a host. I think at the end of the day, be really clear. Be really concise. Be very genuine and make sure that you do your research and you know that you’re a good fit. And tell that host how you’re a good fit. One last side note some just another pet peeve as Haylee mentioned, I really do not enjoy when somebody pitches me. And they this happens, guys, this is a secret, but I’m gonna say it anyway, this happens with industry leaders, people will pitch me and they say to me, I will speak on whatever you want me to speak on. And I say back, that’s not my job. Like I can’t come up with a topic for you. If you’re pitching me, I can come up with a topic for you if I have found you, because I want you to speak on that topic. But if you’re offering to come on my show, and you’re asking me to come onto my platform, I want to know what you want to talk about. I want to know what you’re an expert in. I want to know what you’re passionate about. I’m not in your brain. So I can’t do that for you. So I know it sounds harsh, but also like it comes from a place of love. I want you to represent yourself in the best light and only you can make that decision for yourself when you’re pitching someone. So just be really clear and concise and genuine and make sure you do your research.

Haylee Gaffin 44:44
Absolutely. And another thing I’ll say is Instagram DMs is not where to pitch yourself. If you want to reach out and say hey, I’d love to pitch myself for the podcast. How do I go about doing that? typically there’s an email address that they want you to send it to. There’s also normally an application on their website, or it’s hidden, and they’ll send it to you as well. But I think that Instagram gets lost. And I like being a podcast producer and handling a lot of pitches, I do prefer it to be in my email, because I don’t want to be reminded of a pitch at 10 o’clock at night on Instagram. And that’s like a whole other thing. But it also allows me to stay organized. So like, if I’m managing a pitch for lately. And they come to me in my DMS and say, hey, I want to be on les Lee’s podcast. And then I secure it through Instagram, and send them a link to schedule their call. And then laylee comes to me three days later, and it’s like, hey, there’s someone on my, on my list, who is this? And I’m looking through my email, and I can’t find it, everything’s missing. That’s like, that’s a huge thing for me is ask them how to apply versus like, just coming straight out with a pitch on Instagram.

Laylee Emadi 45:57
Yes, please. I especially I mean, I’m sure the producer gets overwhelming as a host. It gets overwhelming. I’m putting giving put on the spot and having to like, have that conversation. So I always refer them, especially because Haley does all of my, you know, like my timing and my booking and she does that whole process. And she has it so beautifully created, that if I tried to go in there and do it, I would probably just really mess it up. So just knowing the appropriate ways and places to pitch for sure. I’m really glad that we went into this bonus because I think it was well worth it. Y’all. We have given you so much content. And then please don’t feel overwhelmed. Maybe Haley like run us through maybe like the five reasons to think about starting a podcast and how they tie in together. And then we’ll wrap it up. But just know, if you’re feeling overwhelmed. Don’t my number one piece of advice. Just start start that journey. Talk to a Podcast Producer if you want to Haley’s amazing plugging her I don’t even know if she’s available or hasn’t time to take new clients on it at the time you’re watching this, but it never hurts to reach out. I’m sure she has resources to share.

Haylee Gaffin 47:00
Yes. So I also want to plug Laylee’s podcast really quickly, because it’s amazing. And I love it, obviously. But soheresthethingpodcast.com. You can also find it on Instagram and apple and Spotify and all your favorite podcast players. But the five reasons are. serve your audience well. Set yourself up as a leading expert in your field networking connect with industry experts by inviting them on as guests. Utilize your podcast as an additional marketing tactic to promote and grow your personal brand or your services and then monetize your podcast. And I think like lately said if you’re overwhelmed start with number one. Just serve your audience. Don’t worry about the others. Right right now you can work on those as you’re building your podcast because that’s the great thing about it is you can pivot your podcast every single episode.

Laylee Emadi 47:55
Yep. I love that. Thank you so much Haylee. This was amazing. And of course you guys hop into the community. If you have any questions. If you have anything you want to share. If you have anything you want to talk about a takeaway, or you have a question for Haylee, or for myself as a podcast host, drop it in the Facebook community. And we will talk all about it for show notes and resources mentioned on today’s episode head to so here’s the thing podcast.com and if you’re enjoying the podcast, I’d love to read your review on iTunes. Thanks so much for listening and I’ll catch you in the next episode.